Forensics in India

Transcript of interview with Dr Keshav Kumar

Dr Keshav Kumar

SKN

Hello, everyone, this is Susanne Knabe-Nicol from Police Science Dr, today I’m doing an exclusive interview with Dr Keshav Kumar from the Indian Police, and he’s going to talk about forensic in India, very, very important topic, and he’s contributed to some amazing changes and updates there, so welcome to the stage, Dr Kumar, hello

KK

Thank you, hello everyone.

SKN

Could you please give us an idea of who you are and what you’ve done in your career so far?

KK

I belong to the Indian Police Service, I joined my service in the year 1986 and I superannuated in the year 2021, and during my tenure I have done both the rural policing and the city policing. And thereafter, I also joined the intelligence bureau of the state police and in the year 2009, I was then the Inspector General of police for the correctional services, what we call prisons in Gujarat, and thereafter I joined the Central Bureau of Investigation which is at par with the Federal Bureau of Investigation like United States and I served there as the joint director and I looked after Interpol, the technical forensic and the coordination wing. And after some time, I got transferred as joint director CBI for Mumbai and looking after the Western part of India, Gujarat Maharashtra, Goa Daman and Diu, five states which I used to look after as the the joint director of CBI in Mumbai.

In CBI, my job was basically anti-corruption work and I have spent about 10 years, about a decade in anti-corruption, so both conventional crime investigation, anti-corruption work, intelligence work, city policing, rural policing, intelligence policing, correctional services, all these sorts of policing I have done. In the year 2021, I retired and during the past 35 years that I spent in the police, my focus was investigation through forensics. And right from the beginning of my probationary days, I spent lots of time in forensics and I mastered the art of application of forensics in investigation. And to date, with regard to the interface of forensics in crime investigation, I have been able to get convictions for 62 people, solely based on forensics. So, my conviction in forensics is of very high order, I breathe forensics, I preach forensics and I follow forensics and after I superannuated I thought I must do some higher studies in forensics and I did my PhD from the National Forensic Sciences University in Gujarat, which is the first university devoted fully to forensic science that is in Gujarat and that is a national importance institution. I did my PhD from there and it is only on this 28th of March [2025] that I was awarded my PhD degree and I was able to complete it after I superannuated because during my service time I was hardly finding time. And now, presently after superannuation, I have devoted my life to the application of forensics, I keep teaching forensics in very many universities, I’m on the faculty, I'm on the board of governors of very very many universities, I teach forensics, I train the law enforcement agencies in forensics, I’ve also trained judicial officers and have been an active trainer right now.

Just yesterday, I was with Goa police where we framed some SOP [standard operating procedure] with regard to investigation of crime against women and children, how should it get investigated, so we made a SOP which is now going to be applicable. I wish it was applied in the entire country, but especially in Goa, the police department, the judiciary and the prosecution department and the non-government organisations were a part of that function and we released the SOP for crime investigation in crime against women and children. Apart from the conventional investigation that I have done and I keep doing, I keep helping, I am also consultant with the government of Assam for capacity building in forensics and accreditation, so my job is as a consultant to government of Assam to enhance the capacity of Assam police in forensics, then train policemen in forensics and also supervise and guide in the heinous crime investigations.

So, this has been my journey, I’m still continuing in Assam and I keep consulting, I keep giving my guidance to the students and also mentor quite a number of them. And I will be happy to tell you that among the students whom I have mentored, one of them has become Police officer, a judge and the other is practicing in the high court and imminent positions all those interns have got, so this has been my experience.

Apart from this conventional investigation, I'm also a wildlife crime investigator, I would just like to take few minutes, in 2007, there were 10 Asiatic lions which got poached in Gir sanctuary in Gujarat and Gir sanctuary is the only sanctuary which is the abode of Asiatic lions so when 10 Asiatic lions got poached, initially the investigation was given to the forest department because it took place inside the Gir sanctuary, but later on there was little development in the progress of the investigation and there was no detection, so finally the then chief minister who is presently our prime minister Narendra Modi, so at that time I was in CID [criminal investigations department] crime and I was picked up to investigate the poaching of 10 Asiatic lions, for me it was a very difficult proposition because I have been a conventional forensic expert and investigation of the conventional crime. I never had investigated any wildlife crime. So, it was a difficult proposition but somehow I managed, I thought for investigating this case I need to remain inside the forest, otherwise I will not be able to investigate this case, so I camped in the Gir sanctuary which was about 600 kilometres from my office. I camped inside the Gir sanctuary for almost two to three months and finally, I was not only able to detect the case but we also got convictions for 38 poachers, which is possibly the biggest conviction in the world in the field of wildlife crime. So, I am also a wildlife crime investigator of late. After my retirement, I have also been made the senior adviser for Indian Pharmaceutical Alliance, now this alliance is a conglomerate of very many companies who are in the pharma world and my job is to work for anti-counterfeit medicine, so conventional crime investigation, wildlife crime investigation and now anti- counterfeit medicine work pan-India is also in my bag and I'm trying to do justice to all these three post retirement. So much for my introduction, I hope this is more than enough or if you would like to know something more than that.

SKN

Well, that is a very colourful, amazing and very impressive background and congratulations on the PhD, and for an investigator to camp out in the forest for 2.5 months I think is fantastic and to get 38 convictions for poachers, so very well done. And it’s also really nice to speak to someone who’s got this passion about it. I know you’re retired from policing but you haven’t stopped working, have you. You did your PhD and you’re advising here, you’re advising there, you’re teaching, you’re mentoring, and this is really amazing to see. So, I’m really pleased that not only are you doing this really great work, but you also seem to love it with every fibre of your being, that’s really nice to see. What would you say is the state of forensics in India at the moment?

KK

I remember my days when I joined the police service in the year 1986, that time, forensics was still evolving and I would say that in India, it is still evolving. We do have central institutions like central forensic science lab, and at the state level, we have state forensic labs and within the states, we also have the regional forensics science labs, so I would say the existence of forensics has been in our legal justice system, but I won't say that it is of very high quality, still in the evolving stage. But now, there has been lots of emphasis on forensics and I would like to inform here that recently, the government has taken a major step, I would say that would be a giant leap, because the government has come out with a new regulation which has abrogated the old Indian penal code, criminal procedure code and Indian Evidence Act, and a new act has been made in place of that, which is called Bhartiya Nagrik Sanhita. That is ‘BNSS’. In this BNSS Act, there has been a strong emphasis on forensics and now it has been mandatory that in all the crimes in which the punishment is more than seven years, the forensic interface is mandatory. So, here I see that there is lots of emphasis on the interface of forensics, but at the same time it is very challenging also because whatever wherewithal that we have with regard to the forensic infrastructure, that really needs to get overhauled, but the government has been paying lots of attention and lots of money is now being focused on the development of forensic infrastructure all over the country.

I would also like to inform here that in our country, we have the world's first forensic science university in terms of National Forensic Sciences University, which is at par with the national institutions that we have. And this institution is totally focused in forensic education, forensic examination and teaching and training the various law enforcement agencies, and it is a centre of excellence for very many fields of forensics. So, now we are on the path of recovery and I think in due years we'll be having a very good infrastructure and also the manpower for manning the forensic science infrastructure in India. And whatever the lack of trained personnel that we were having, now that lack of trained personnel will be taken up by the people who are getting rolled out of the national forensics sciences university every year, roughly about 7,000 students all over the country are rolling out of the forensics institutions, both government and private. And in times to come, in the next five years, we would be requiring about 90,000 forensic scientists to man all this infrastructure, so I would say that we are on the path of recovery and sooner or later we'll be at par with the international standards in terms of training also and in terms of infrastructure also.

SKN

That sounds really positive, and I hope that this recent change in the law can bring about all these positive developments that you’re hoping for. Can you tell us a little bit about the work that you did on forensics in Assam, I know that’s where you’re based, isn’t it? What was your involvement in the development of forensics there?

KK

You know, when I got an offer from the government of Assam to join Assam government as advisor for forensics, I was mightily surprised because basically, I am a cop, I'm a retired police officer, I'm not a forensic expert, but my forte has been application of forensic science in crime investigation. So, I was very happy that at least I have got yet another badge to my name that I'm also a forensic expert in addition to my being a police officer. I can certainly tell you that in our country, I would be the first police officer to have been given this assignment as a forensic consultant to any state government. So, it's a matter of pride for me that not only I'm a police officer but at the same time I'm a practicing forensic expert. So, there are three jobs which I'm doing in Assam: Number one is capacity building of the existing forensic infrastructure. So, in Assam we have a central forensic science lab which belongs to the state, and from there we have the regional forensic science labs in various districts, which are important districts. Now, the new chief minister [CM], the chief of government of Assam, he's very supportive and I'm happy to tell you that when I joined, I suggested to the honourable CM that we need to have our own homegrown forensic experts. And Assam is in the North-East part of our country, which is slightly underdeveloped and not very much in the mainstream. And now, with the new government coming up, it's getting lots of facilities and lots of new infrastructure. So, when I joined them as a forensic consultant, I said that we need to have homegrown forensic experts here that we are able to get within our state. So, I suggested to him that we must have a branch of the national forensic sciences university which is the national university of the country, and to my surprise when I mooted this issue, the honourable Chief Minister of Assam  Himanta Biswas Sarma. he took it up very positively and he gave us 50 acres of land very close to Guwahati which is about 28 kilometres from the state capital of Assam, and now that institution is coming up. So, in the meantime I said this institution will be taking about say two to three years to get constructed and being able to get the students rolled out from the university, so I suggested that if it is possible that we are given some sort of a makeshift arrangement or maybe a transitory accommodation ‘till the time we get the new one constructed. Again, he was very happy and he said key yes we'll be able to give you about 15 to 20 rooms in the Guwahati Medical College, which is a big medical college in the state capital, so we were able to get 15 rooms there and we started the courses about two years back, and you'll be very happy to know that three batches have rolled out and at least about 300 students have already rolled out of that university. So, this was basically creation of the manpower, because I said you can get whatever hardware that you want, that we’ll always be able to buy from the market, but getting skilled manpower is slightly difficult and especially in forensic when it is upcoming in India. So, this particular education institution and the branch of the national forensics university is going to play a major role in Assam.

So, this is with regard to the infrastructure development.

I suggested to him - why only the forensic infrastructure that is coming up will take care only of Assam, so we have additionally the seven neighbouring sister states, so I suggested why not also include all the seven sister states? So, now these seven sister states will also be covered by the national forensic university in Guwahati. Additionally, I also suggested that why not have the Southeast Asian countries also included in this so that they can also come down, have training and return to their countries respectively in little time. Because now, most of the people come from the Southeast Asian countries for training to Gujarat, which is the Western-most part of the country and the traveling is a bit longish, so if we have a centre in the North-East, it will be able to cater to Southeast Asia also. So, in times to come, the entire Eastern states of the country will be getting integrated with this institution, so this is with regard to the infrastructure.

Now, with regard to the training part. It was my opinion that we need to train the police force on the forensics interface. So, the Chief Minister was very positive and he said ‘Well, train about 500 policemen’. I told him that getting training for 500 for any institution will be very difficult, so I again connected with the national forensic science university, vice chancellor Dr JM Vyas and suggested to him that he may kindly consider at least training 50 police officers every month and they would be coming from Assam to Gujarat and stay in national forensic science university for a period of one month. During that one month they will be given intensive and extensive training in forensic and they go back, then the other batch comes. So, to date we have trained about 350 police officers who have gone back and they are spread across the state for taking the forensics ahead. Now, with regard to the training part I also suggested that when I am in Assam, I volunteered that I will go to the various places in Assam where all the people from the districts would congregate at the district headquarter at the range level what we call range, so over the districts there is a range, and within a range there are four to five districts. So in Assam, traveling from one part to the other part, it was very difficult so I suggested instead of the entire police force coming down to Guwahati or any other central place, it will be costing lots of money and also, simultaneously for one day training, there would be at least 3 days spent for a police officer. For any district police force, you know sparing people and trainees for 3 to four days, that is slightly taxing. So, I volunteered that I would go to the range level, which is easier for the districts to come down, so I have covered all the seven ranges and that is covering 38 districts.

Now, in each and every range, I take classes for training of policemen for two days and I cover basically two things. Number one: the application of DNA in crime investigation, and the advanced scientific methods of investigation. Because I felt that the crime against women and children is the highest there, so we must target that area. So, the common denominator for crime against women and children is I think the role of DNA, which can play a major role in conviction. So, I focus on DNA and advanced science scientific methods of investigation, which is a part of my PhD thesis, psychological investigation. To this date, I have been able to train about 550 police officers across the state, covering seven ranges of 38 states. So, this is for the training part.

Apart from this, we also train the forensic experts. We have a very advanced centre for DNA fingerprinting which is called Centre for DNA Fingerprinting and Diagnostics, we have had a MOU,  memorandum of understanding with them, and they are now going to train the forensic DNA forensic experts at Hyderabad into forensic training and also examine our exhibits which are difficult, like extracting DNA from charred bone is very difficult and most of the state forensic science labs are not equipped to handle such cases. So, this facility is available with the CDFD in Hyderabad and they are also helping us in examination of the serious crimes in which extraction of DNA is difficult. We are also training for the judiciary, on the 24th of May [2025], I will be very happy to inform you that the director of the Centre for DNA Fingerprinting and Diagnostics will be coming down from Hyderabad and training the honourable judges of Assam judiciary on the 24th of May on the usage of DNA and the various allied issues connected with DNA for crime investigation.

So, enhancement of forensic capabilities, training of capabilities; the third thing is, if there is any serious crime, then I provide my consultancy, I camp at the place and I give my consultancy services for forensics and navigate the investigation of the cases forensically. Recently, there was a case in rhinoceros were poached in Kaziranga, so with my background in investigation of wildlife crime and also the wildlife crime forensics, we were able to track down, and very many cases are being tracked down now. In August last year [2024], we were able to get a tiger skin and recently, about 10 days back we were able to get 13 gecko lizard reptiles, which is a very expensive commodity in the United States, I'm told that it costs about 80 lakhs, Indian currency rupees for one gecko lizard. So, you know wildlife crime, conventional crime training, enhancing the capacity of the police force and also providing consultancy is the work that I'm doing in Assam.

SKN

Okay, that’s a lot. You’re a very, very busy person, I appreciate that you’ve taken the time to us here. Last time we spoke, you mentioned Rapid Hit DNA, can you tell us about that?

KK

This RapidHit DNA is a latest technology in DNA fingerprinting and the best part about this technology is that it develops DNA in less than 90 minutes. And it does not require any interface of a forensic expert. Any person can get the profile and the DNA profile can be developed and matched with the person whom you are arresting, or from the scene of crime if you get any body fluids for development of DNA. So, the conventional DNA profiling is already done, which takes more time but I'm trying to sell the idea that we need to go in for rapid technology, so that the DNA profiling can be taken in within less than 90 minutes. I propose that this rapid DNA hit technology, if we are able to get at every police station, that is my wish, so that whenever you arrest any person and if there is any body fluid and if you are able to match the DNA of the arrested person with the scene of crime DNA, so arrest would have fool-proof evidence against it. Right now, getting DNA profile in less than 90 minutes is very difficult. I would like to narrate here how Rapid Hit DNA is being used in Indian conditions. We were the first ones to get the rapid DNA in our forensic science laboratory. About 3 to four months back, there was a gaming zone in Rajkot districts where about 27 children were charred to death because of a fire incident. The identification of the children was very difficult, because the bones had been charred. So, there was lots of public pressure for identification of the children so that the investigation can progress further and also the identification can be done. So, we were able to develop the DNA profile of 27 children and match with their relatives and the parents for identification in less than 48 hours. I was also mighty surprised that how can you develop so many DNA profiles in 48 hours, so many people are there, how is this possible? So, it is a convergence of the conventional type of DNA profiling and the RapidHit, so what they did with regard to the reference sample that they had to develop, all those people who claimed that the children were theirs, so their profile was developed on Rapid Hit, so within less than a day's work, they were able to develop the reference DNA profiles. And thereafter, through conventional means, they started doing it two, three times and they worked 48 hours and they were able to match all the DNA profiles of the children. This is how RapidHit DNA is making a leap forward in terms of DNA profiling, because we were able to get the DNA in much less time, so if we are able to develop and we are able to have this infrastructure at the police station level, I think there will be a fool-proof evidence against every person who has been arrested. So, this is not only for the indictment of a person or arresting a person, but if a person is wrongly arrested, if his DNA profile doesn't match him, then obviously he can he cannot be arrested. So, it will not only help in arresting but it also will help in exoneration. So, in Goa, just two days back on the 26th [April 2025], when I was there, we had a demonstration of the RapidHit DNA technology before the entire participants, and everyone was very happy that the DNA profile can get obtained in 90 minutes. So, this is the time that we need to adopt new technological innovations, so that we cut down on the time of investigation, so this is what is RapidHit DNA technology and I will also be happy to tell you that the government of Assam has now been ready to buy at least two Rapid Hit DNA machines there, so we'll be the first ones possibly in the North-East and Eastern India to have the Rapid Hit DNA technology.

SKN

That sounds very exciting. Can you give us a comparison, you say a Rapid Hit DNA machine can develop the DNA profile in 90 minutes, how long does the conventional way take? And does Rapid Hit DNA have the same amount of reliability as conventional DNA processing?

KK

There are two aspects - number one, you mentioned about reliability. I can gauge the reliability of the reports developed by the Rapid Hit DNA because recently, the FBI has also approved that they are able to get DNA profiles for their CODIS [Combined DNA Index System]. So, reliability is certainly there and we are the first ones to develop here. Number two, with regard to the conventional form of DNA profiling which takes longer, now longer means there is huge pendency of work, and with the rise of the implementation of the new BNSS Act, which mandates that there has to be a forensic interface in each and every case in which there is punishment more than seven years. So, there is huge amount of exhibits coming to the forensics labs. So, the huge pendency coupled with the time taken, I mean you'll be lucky if you are able to get the DNA profile from the forensics lab in 3 months. But if we have Rapid Hit DNA technology the evidence will be gathered faster, and the time taken for development of DNA will be reduced significantly. This is how both can be used in not only in conventional but also in areas with regard to the rapid hit DNA technology.

SKN

That sounds good. What would you say is the next step in forensics in India, what do you think needs to happen, what do you think is going to happen?

KK

We need to go for more decentralisation. Right now, each and every state has got a state forensic lab, while at the central level we have the central forensic science lab, of which there are about five to seven in the country. So, I think the given infrastructure needs to go in for more decentralisation and I'm very happy that the Assam government realising the decentralisation process for the forensic science labs, they have decided to create more regional forensic labs, so covering more districts from the regional level. Recently, seven forensics regional forensic science labs are coming up in Assam and that is the case with other states also. Since I'm associated with Assam I’m more privy to what's going on in Assam, but the same cases with regard to all the states. And the central government is pumping huge amounts of money to the state governments to enhance their capacity in terms of infrastructure and also capacity in terms of development of manpower. It is just the beginning and I think the time has come for forensics to take roots in India much much better and much faster than what used to happen earlier The other thing is that we need to have affordable technology, so whatever technologies that are there that is slightly expensive, we are masters in development of software. The new government has been paying more emphasis on making in India. There are very many things, very many forensic products that are now getting developed in India rather than buying from foreign countries we are now developing our own, what we call ‘atmanirbhar’ self sufficiency. So, there are many new organisations coming up, new start-ups coming up, we are doing a great job in the forms of research and development and in the forms of giving affordable technology. Then public-private partnership. I think public-private partnership is also required so that the pressure on the government labs is reduced significantly. Recently, the honourable home minister of India in a national level forensic science conference on the 15th and 16th of April [2025]  mentioned that soon we will be also permitting many private forensic labs to give reports so that you know the process of investigation gets speeded up. This public-private partnership is again going to be a great enabler in this in this process of investigation. The other thing I would also like to think over that with regard to legal and policy reforms - I would like to stress here that with regard to the government's decision in the new BNSS Act, that all the investigations in which cases in which the punishment is more than seven years there will be a mandatory forensic interface, so this is really going to play a major role in all the cases that we are coming up, so these are some of the things that I feel will be playing a major role in the forensic development of the country.

SKN

As my last question to you Dr Kumar today, one that I didn’t prepare you for: if you had a magic wand and you could wave it to make one change in policing in India, what would that one change be?

KK

I have been practicing forensic for the past 35 years and very passionately. And in persevering way I have been pursuing it, so the magic wand would be: look for evidence, because you know the oral evidence - like in our country the problem is that we have a system that any statement required before a police officer is not acceptable in the court of law. This is a major flaw, so how do we bridge the problem? It is only through forensics that we can bridge the problem. I will give you a live example: when the investigation of the lion poaching case, Asiatic lion poaching case of Gir sanctuary was given to me; one of my investigating officers was of the opinion ‘Sir, this case will never get detected’. I said ‘Why will it not be detected?’. He said ‘Sir, there is hardly any oral evidence, the incident had taken place inside the Gir sanctuary, in the sanctuary no-one is allowed without a pass, so there will not be any oral evidences.’ But you know I told him I'm very happy that there is no oral evidence because oral evidence has its own problems, maybe the person lies, maybe the person turns hostile, and maybe it takes place over 25 to 30 years when the witness may also have died. But I said we will be able to reconstruct the whole investigation through forensic and I have goose bumps when I say that it was only because of forensic that we got convictions in this case, because we had absolutely no oral evidence. So, my conviction in forensic thereafter and even before, I’m a very steadfast supporter and my conviction in forensics is the highest and that is why I can see that as a police officer, I'm more known as a forensic expert than as a police officer. So, the magic wand is the use of forensics everywhere possible.

I will also like to tell you here that why did I pursue forensic psychology? Because there are so many areas when we investigate a case, we have a gut feeling that this person is lying or he's not telling the truth. But we have no means by which we possibly say that he's lying, and the courts would not accept, because any statement record before a police officer in India is not tenable in the court of law. So, how to get such things where there is no evidence? So, it was through forensic psychology that I was able to get information, analysing the crime scene and the criminal through forensic psychology. Now, if for instance psychologist gives an opinion that yes indeed, after the psychological analysis and also after the crime scene profiling they have found that it is false or it is true, that is acceptable in the court of law, because forensic experts are experts whose testimony in court is tenable. But as a police officer, my testimony is not tenable in the court of law. So, I had a major flaw and I thought that I must seek the help of forensic experts in developing the investigations forensically, so that the honourable courts give credence and have a reliable source of information and reliable evidence from the experts and they give conviction. So, the wildlife crime investigation in which 38 poachers got convicted, there was not even a single oral evidence, it was basically all forensic evidences that led to this conviction. I wish I had more time, I could have explained how forensics played a major role in getting convictions for 38 poachers. Recently, the Zological Society of London invited me to deliver a talk on this and I delivered a talk before the international audience that how forensically, we were able to get convictions and detect the case in the wildlife Gir sanctuary case, so my only rule of thumb and my thinking is, that if you are able to get forensic into investigations there is a good chance that conviction will be coming your way, so think forensic and think ahead.

SKN

Excellent, well I hope everybody will stick to that, and that was my last question for you, I thank you very much for your time today, and I very much hope that a lot of people will be inspired and maybe will want to know a little bit more, and I hope it’s okay that if people contact me that they want to speak to you, that I maybe get you to connect is that okay if anyone wants your advice?

KK

Sure I’m game, I would love to.

SKN

Thank you very much for your time today, Dr Kumar.

KK

Kindly share my details with them and I would love to connect

SKN

Will do, I’m always very happy to connect people with each other.

KK

I also express my gratitude to you for giving this opportunity with the international audience to share my views, thank you so much.